How Anxiety Almost Stopped Me from Becoming a Brain Surgeon

Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

[00:00] I'm going to talk to you guys today about something that not many people in the world know other than my wife and my family and a few select people. But I think, you know, we've been on social media almost two years now. And I'm finding that the more that we talk about personal things, the more it seems like we're helping people.

[00:20] And if this is something that can help anybody out there, that's why I'm going to put it out. For me, it was a very debilitating, embarrassing thing in my life that went on for 10 plus years. And it's hard to talk about. So this can be a special episode for you guys. But I actually had anxiety disorder or panic.

[00:40] disorder when I was really young and it was almost ruined my life. So for those of you that don't know what a panic attack or panic disorder is and I hope you never do, it's you literally feel like you're dying if you don't get out of where you are. I mean there's no other way for me

Journey from Bombay to Rishikesh

[01:00] You literally feel like you're going to die. When you have an attack, your heart starts racing and your chest is pounding and you can't breathe and you start sweating profusely and your body becomes tingling and you feel dread like you're going to die and you have to leave. I want to talk about that because I

[01:20] It took me a good portion of my life to overcome it, but I did overcome it. And I know anyone out there who has anxiety disorder, panic attacks, panic disorder, I know you can overcome it too. And I'm going to tell you how I did it. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously it's a very hard thing to talk about and anyone who saw you now.

[01:40] success you've had in your career wouldn't probably assume that of you. Which is a good thing because it just shows that so many people are going through things that no one would ever know about and we're more similar than we are different. I mean I hit it. I hit it from everybody because it's something that was embarrassing to me. But it's not.

[02:00] that so many people experience and it's not something that you ship the others, you should be embarrassed of. But I always start from the beginning. How old were you when it first started and why don't you talk about that? Yeah, so I was a very outgoing person. I mean, when I was in sixth grade, I was the president of student council and I would give speeches to the class

Early Signs of Anxiety and Panic Attacks

[02:20] I remember in seventh grade I ran for student council and talked in front of the whole class in the gymnasium and never had a problem with public speaking. And I was 13 at the time. I was in seventh grade. It was English class. And you know how, like, they'll ask, everybody has to read a section out of a book and they'll go around the class? When it got to be my turn,

[02:40] I started to read and I literally just froze. I mean, my heart started to pound. I could just feel my heart pounding in my chest and I couldn't breathe and my hands were profusely sweating and my face was tingling and I had this horrible feeling of

[03:00] dread like I was going to die. Like I had to get out of that room. I just had to get out that second. So I froze and I left. I just left the room and I didn't come back. I don't think my teacher ever asked me what happened. I just didn't come back till the next day. And then I came back that next day to English class and it was the same

Social Withdrawal and Impact on Daily Life

[03:20] thing and they're going around the room and I knew I was like number six in line to have to talk again and that same thing happened that same attack of light like lightning terror attack happened and I didn't know it was happening I had no idea what it was all I knew is I needed to get out of it I couldn't I couldn't stay there's no way I could stay and I left and

[03:40] And that's when my life changed. I went from this normal kid to somebody who feared going to school. I would completely avoid any position I could be put into public speak or have to read out loud. I would avoid. Through fourth through sixth grade.

[04:00] never missed a day of school. I got some award in grade school for that. I started missing school all the time because I would tell my mom I was sick. I didn't feel good because if there's any chance I had a talk in school or class, I just wouldn't go to school. And I would tell my mom I was sick and my life unfolded from there. I mean, I stopped hanging around my friends. I

Struggles with School and Public Speaking

[04:20] wouldn't go to social gatherings or parties anymore because I was just becoming afraid of situations like that. And I just became this loner. My whole life changed. I started hanging around a different group of people who were very quiet and I was always looking for safe classes that I could go to that didn't involve speaking.

[04:40] And it just it consumed it may consume my every moment. And that's all I would think about is is that next attack going to come on. That's all my life was about. I had to avoid that next panic attack coming on. So when all this was going on and obviously there's no Internet back. This was what like the 1980s.

[05:00] I mean I was I was in sixth grade in 1976 right. Okay. So probably you know I mean I was in. Okay. So like the late 1970s we'll say. So like no not like access the Internet all that stuff you couldn't just look up you know no any of these things. And so you are. So it's not like

[05:20] now like where you can you could you'd be having these things you could type this stuff in and say like I might have this and we didn't even have there were no cell phones back there were no computers at that point I mean Apple computer had never been I mean I don't think so yeah you see you like you're just 12 or 13 years old you completely have no idea what's going on why didn't you did you part of it was you just

Limited Resources and Support in the Past

[05:40] about completely you didn't want to talk to your parents or family about it or anyone else or how did I go. I mean I was only 13 years old so I mean I in retrospect I just couldn't because I can't it's like it's like shame and embarrassment right. I mean it's such a simple thing like you can't talk in front of people and you have these attacks where everybody could see it's happening to me my my face gets flushed they could tell them

[06:00] scared, they know something's going on and I leave. I mean what do you think my friends thought of that? But no one, no one would ever approach me or talk about it. I mean my teachers never asked me what's going on, my friends really, they knew something was going on but they never asked me, my parents never even said, I mean how can my mom not know what was happening? But or maybe

[06:20] Maybe I just hit it really well. I don't know what it was, but it's just one of those things I couldn't talk about. It was too debilitating, too embarrassing. And so I just chose to live with it and I just kept it inside me to myself. And so, yeah. So as you move forward through high school and then undergrad, how did it?

[06:40] progress. So it was bad through all of high school. I started doing a lot of things on my own, spending time on my own. In college, I had a few sluck friends, but I didn't have a lot of friends, I would say, and I didn't do a lot of things socially. But college was

[07:00] tough. I mean, I again scheduled my classes around classes. I didn't think I'd have to talk. You know, I mean, that's what my life was about, trying to avoid situations like that. And so, you know, this went on for like 10 years and it's one of those things that, you know, I knew eventually if I wanted to be

[07:20] person I wanted to be and if I wanted to become a surgeon and I wanted to be an outgoing person like I always wanted to be, I knew I had to do something. So as I moved on to medical school, I knew things had a change. So at the end of college, beginning of medical school, I would try in certain classes to speak, you know, and sometimes I would be successful

[07:40] successful and sometimes I would have the panic attack and I would leave the room. So it still went on. But I was trying my hardest to beat it. It's something you can't control. It just happens. It's out of your control. And then in medical school, second year medical school, I was married, well not married, I was

[08:00] dating my wife Cindy. She's my wife now. But she's the only one in the world I ever told about it. It was just too embarrassing. But I told her. And we decided to do a Dale Carnegie course. And so it's a speaking course and I didn't want to do it. But she coaxed me into doing it, which was the right thing to do. And it was my worst nightmare. I mean, that's my

Turning Point: Dale Carnegie Course and Managing Fear

[08:20] worst nightmares having to do a course about speaking in front of people. It was horrible, but it helped. And as I became more of an adult and I grew up more, I started to gain control of it. And by the end of medical school, beginning a residency, I pretty much gained control of it for

[08:40] the most part. But I knew I had to. I mean I knew when I became a resident and was going to make my way to become a neurosurgeon, I knew I'd have to present cases. I'd have to present at grand rounds. I knew I'd have to do that stuff and I had to learn how to do it. And believe me it wasn't easy. I mean the fear was still there but I learned to control it. But it only happened by me being

[09:00] proactive and that's why I talk to people. It's like you're trapped in a prison of anxiety and I know that feeling because it's like you're trapped in prison and you can't get out. But you can change your life. I did it and I know you can because I just I tried. I tried little steps here or there. I'd fail sometimes but I would succeed sometimes.

[09:20] The more you do it and the more you put yourself in that position of fear, the more you'll overcome your fear. And eventually, I did it. And I finished residency. I made my dream come true. I became a neurosurgeon and I've been a neurosurgeon now for 25 years and I have a wife and family and

[09:40] Again, it's not something I go around and tell people. I mean, the only people know I only told Kevin and my other kids what you found out me two years ago, maybe three years ago. You never know. You never talked about it. But I mean, you've you've like alluded to it at times. I never really told you what it was. I mean, I know the whole story. But.

[10:00] I mean, what's two is, I think two was so funny is that I think there is something to social media a little bit of the introverts kind of can do stuff in more of a way because you're not like in front of a huge crowd like you are just making stuff and it can go out to

[10:20] tons of people. What's funny though is opposites do attract because my mom is someone who is very very social, can talk to anyone. And you are like a softer spoken person. But what's funny too is everyone's always, any monosadulamist patient, they've always saw it. You always get complimented on your bedside manner. So that, I mean, almost that.

[10:40] helps him. But it did change too. I mean I would say I got over that fear to some extent and I never interfered with my life as a nurse surgeon at all but I still wouldn't go out on my way to give speeches or public speak but then you know my son Brian died and he was in the news right away and they were saying some things about you know him being a drunk driver and how what a reckless person he was

[11:00] just destroying his character. I called our local news station and I requested an interview and I would never have done that. But I mean I was not going to let my son die and not have my say and that's when things really changed for me because then I became very outspoken. I mean we've done so many television interviews now. We've been on the Katy

[11:20] Kirk show. You know I my son's death really solidified for me. It did something to me that I'm much more able to speak to people to groups of people on TV live audiences. I think it but I've changed myself. Somehow I went for this person who

[11:40] couldn't even speak a word from a book out loud in front of three people to somebody who can talk on national television now. I think it's almost like my greatest disability, which was my panic disorder and phobia of speaking, has become my greatest triumph, my greatest accomplishment in life.

[12:00] almost one of them, my greatest disabilities become my greatest triumph in a way. But I think part of it is that when something's so powerful and so important to you, it beat out the anxiety and everything else. Because just like it's in the same way, but to a higher degree, becoming a neurosurgeon was more important in

[12:20] much higher purpose than your anxiety. So that beat it out and then it beat it out again. You would rather, you knew to yourself that, you know, of how much you were going to hate doing it, speaking in front of people and speaking to all these high schools about your son's death, but it was your purpose that felt like a calling and a purpose to you. So you did it.

[12:40] I think Kevin is a really good point because I think it is one of those things where you have a purpose. Like my goal was to become a neurosurgeon. I knew to do that. I had to do something. So I would baby steps. I would try more and more each time to do a little more speaking in front of people even if I failed and then that build upon itself until we

[13:00] We get to the point that you reach your goal and reach your purpose in life. And then when Brian died, he had another purpose and it was to speak to the classes of students and the public. Well, I think it's cool. There's a couple of things here. I think it is so true. Now think because you've overcome that when we do stuff on social media,

[13:20] how much impact it's had with explaining stuff like alcohol awareness and preventing drunk driving. So I mean, it's an amazing thing. And I think another important thing is, I think especially with anxiety or applies to so many things, but each time you like Seth, you had to leave the room and you weren't able to talk at all.

[13:40] That grew the fear in your mind that made it even harder. It became a higher mountain to try to climb over. But then each time you took a step towards trying to do even a little bit of something, it shifted away and it made it more manageable. I think so. I think that's kind of because that's how it is with other stuff. I'm not can't say that solidly. But you know, I'm saying every time you're trying to take

[14:00] an action versus not taking action, you're building the confidence towards the desired outcome. And I think people see me as a nurturer. There's no way this guy's got it made and he's got the life in it. There's no way he was ever scared of anything. But you know what? Everybody's got a story. And I just thought by telling my story, it can help other people. There's 300 million people in

[14:20] in the world who have anxiety attacks and anxiety disorder, it's prevalent. And I'll bet you there's a lot of people out there listening right now who know exactly what I'm talking about and they have panic attacks and they don't know how to live life, how to get out of it. It feels like something that you can never escape and that's what I felt like for 10 plus years.

[14:40] But you can escape it. You just have to keep at it. You have to keep trying. Find a goal in life. Find a purpose higher than yourself. You can do it. I mean, I did it. I'm proof that you can do it. But it's not easy. And the other thing I would say, which really was my one of my biggest disappointments, is that no one ever got me help. You know, I was 13 years old.

[15:00] scared. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what was happening to me. I wish my mom or my dad would have noticed that. I wish my friends, my teachers would have said, hey your son's having panic attacks. Let's get him help. There's treatment. I mean you know the first thing is find a trusted person. I never had anybody to trust. I just couldn't even trust anybody to tell anybody about it. Find somebody you trust and

[15:20] tell them what's going on with you. There's treatment. With treatment, 90% chance you can get rid of your anxiety attacks with treatment. And that may include things like medications they can treat you with like anti-anxiety medication or antidepressants. There's cognitive therapy where they train your mind to relax more and breathing techniques.

Seeking Help: Therapy, Medication, and Trusted Support

[15:40] There are challenges where you challenge yourself like going to Dale Carnegie or facing your fear. But see a doctor. Tell somebody about it. Don't live with it. Don't live in a prison like I did. I wasted so many years of my life not enjoying my life because of this. I would hope anybody watching this would learn something from it and not be embarrassed like I was.

[16:00] tell somebody what's going on in your life. So if you could redo it or if you could talk to your 13 year old self when that first happened would you tell them to just go tell your mom or dad? I would tell my mom and dad first and if that didn't happen I would tell my teachers. It was just too embarrassing for me but now what I know now it took me took me to adulthood to figure this out.

[16:20] took me a long time.

[16:40] lot of people probably don't want to bring it up because they don't want to embarrass you further. So but what would you say for someone who's in the position of say someone who sees someone else who might be having this? Would you how do you think that person could potentially help? I mean if you have a tax yourself go up and talk to the person saying know exactly what you're talking about because I think a lot of people feel alone like I'm the

[17:00] only one. Like I felt all those years I thought I was the only one this was happening to. I didn't know 300 million people had this problem. Not to my extent, but anxiety in general. I mean, but there's like 2.5 million people in the country who have panic disorders like I had. You know, panic attacks when you just have that attack where you just feel like you're gonna die, like your body is just

[17:20] your heart's pounding, you can't move. But panic disorder, what I have is you dread the next attack. You live your life based upon that next attack happening and it becomes very debilitating for you. And so there's two and a half million people just in our country who have that panic disorder who are living like I was

[17:40] living and you don't have to. So if you see someone that you think is having symptoms of a panic anxiety attack, go talk to them. Say, hey, I heard this podcast and this neurosurgeon who had this disorder, you know, you sound like you're having some of the symptoms that he had and you know he never talked to him about it. But maybe talk to somebody, talk to your mom or dad or see

[18:00] counselor at school or talk to me. Let me just see what's going on with you. I'm your friend. Right. You know, I think it's something similar. It's like, like people going through like grief. It's kind of these things that we feel shame about or there's taboo, but you take away, we take away the power of these things like anxiety. When we talk to someone else and we realize that there are other people

[18:20] We're almost never by ourselves in anything. There's other people that have been through stuff and I think there's power in that when you can just talk about what you're going through. And for me, it was public speaking. I know a lot of people are scared of public speaking. A lot of people can public speak, they're scared, but they can do it. I literally couldn't speak.

[18:40] for me. But that was my trigger. I mean everybody has their own trigger. It can be stepping outside in the outside world. It can be seeing a snake. It can be fear of hype. It doesn't matter what it is. Whatever your trigger is, it can paralyze you. So everybody has a different story, a different trigger. Mine's not unique.

[19:00] fatigue. That was just my unique set of circumstances. Those are more common, like public speaking or fear of heights. Those are more common phobias, but there's tons of different things that can trigger panic attacks and anxiety. Some people don't even know why it happens. They just have panic attacks. I was talking to somebody

[19:20] on the phone the other day and and I was talking to him that I was gonna come out and tell people about this and he goes yeah I have to tell you I've had several panic attacks in my life that never told anybody about he just felt comfortable telling me because I told him that I used to have them there are so many people out there as it's a random person I was talking to you too he is a friend but I'm just saying it's a random

[19:40] them. I think there's just like, and again, it all comes back to, I think we all have so much we're all completely unique human beings. And I think there's just such a power to sharing your story because all it takes is you never know of what you're sharing. There's probably at least one other person that's going through something similar and it empowers them

[20:00] and empowers each other to do better things. And I don't know I think when I think about it you know for me to sit here and say well you can get through it right because I got through it I guess that's not fair because everybody's different right and everybody has their own set of circumstances and how they deal with things. But I do feel like it took me 10 plus years to get through

Encouraging Open Conversations and Raising Awareness

[20:20] this and maybe without treatment some people couldn't make it through. Maybe I made it and other people wouldn't. But the difference for you could be get treatment early on. Right. I mean what if I'd had treatment in the first year and I and I would have seen a doctor and got in medications and done the therapy. I may not have lived through nine years of that. You know.

[20:40] And so I think if you get anything out of this talk, there is light at the end of the tunnel if you have something similar to what I had and you don't have to live with it all those years like I did because there is help out there. I mean, take advantage of it and don't be embarrassed. I mean, that's the one thing that kills me. I was so embarrassed and I would never tell anybody this. I mean, not even my wife.

[21:00] Well, my girlfriend, she was the only person who knew this until several years ago and I told my kids. And I'm 59 years old. It's like a deep dark secret. That's what it felt like to me. Well, I think you kept it for so long. Did you ever tell your mom and dad? They never knew. My mom died.

[21:20] When I was in my second and third year of medical school and my dad died when I came home and started practice, but I never told my dad. I'd be too embarrassed to tell my dad. You thought I was this big shot neurosurgeon now. But I'm saying you built it up in your mind for so long too. It's probably almost impossible to say. But I think too.

[21:40] I think it's just it can so people know it's possible. I mean there's probably other stores out there but knowing it's something's possible kind of opens up the mind to a lot because you know okay this can be achieved. You just have to keep keep trying at it. But is there any anything else you'd want to I mean I think that was

[22:00] I think that you told me you wanted to do that and you put it on a post on social media. Because obviously over all these years now it's very hard. It would be easier just not to tell anyone about it. I think as you grow older you're going to see, anybody out there listening, as you grow older

[22:20] You go through things in your life. If I offer advice to people out there, I would say that you have to learn that life is not all about you. I learned this when my son died that there's no amount of power or wealth or status that you can have that will bring somebody back when they die.

[22:40] traumatic events in your life just hit that hard to make you realize that there's the only thing you really can value in life is you know happiness and love and helping other people and I think as I've grown older I just realized especially with this social media that we've been doing that there are so many things that you can help people with yeah I got to put yourself

[23:00] self out there and you got to be vulnerable. But you know what? If somebody benefits from it, I think it's worth that anxiety of doing it. And so I would encourage anybody, like I always say, if you have a good story to tell that's going to help somebody, put yourself out there a little bit. You don't want to put yourself in jeopardy, but if it's something that you can do, do it. And that's

[23:20] why I'm doing this. Just I think it's another thing in my life that I went through that I'll bet you a lot of people suffer like I did and and you know don't let anxiety ruin your life like it did mine for a while that's all. Yeah and and even if you have been going through it for a while there's always light at the end of the tunnel and look at you you you went

[23:40] through that for that long and you still were able to eventually overcome it and live a very successful life and a lot of people probably never knew that you went through that. Yeah and it's never affected me. You have to realize too like having a panic attack, my trigger was public speaking but I mean it never affects me like you know in my life it's never affected me in any other aspect of my life.

[24:00] life other than if I had a talk in front of people. It's the only thing in my whole life. Everything else I was so confident. I'm a very confident person. I asked my wife if that's why she married me. I don't second-guess myself, but it's just that one aspect of your life that can really hurt you and change the way you live your life. I knew I had to change. I just knew I had to get rid of it.

Closing Remarks and Call to Share Stories for Support

[24:20] than I did. But it takes a lot of work and a lot of perseverance, but you can do it. Well thanks for sharing. I think that was a really powerful episode and I think for anyone listening or watching, if you yourself or know anyone that might benefit, I think it's a good episode to potentially

[24:40] share with someone. Yeah, definitely. If you know anybody who has anxiety, bad anxiety, or panic attacks or disorders, please share this episode with them. Even have them contact me. I'd be happy to help any way I can. And I think, you know, maybe we should put out some resources for people possibly at the end of this. Yeah, we can put we'll put

[25:00] put in the show notes, we'll put some links to stuff of potential resources if you are having anxiety or panic attacks. Obviously we're not, we don't have any specific advice we can give other than sharing, my dad sharing his experience. But we hope this was helpful. We hope you guys enjoyed

[25:20] it and thanks for sharing that. I think that took a lot of courage. But I hope everyone has a great day and we'll talk to you next episode. Alright thanks everybody.